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USB-based programmers for flashcarts

 
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Nemesis1207



Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:26 am    Post subject: USB-based programmers for flashcarts Reply with quote

I'm sure I'm not the first guy to think of this, but I really think we need 100% USB-based programmers for the flashcarts.

Parallel is dead. When I bought my flashcart several years ago, there were still plenty of options for using parallel, but they are vanishing quickly. My new laptop doesn't have parallel. My new computer doesn't have parallel. I do a lot of development work for the Mega Drive, particularly right now. I'm writing an emulator for the system, and I regularly need to run tests on the real hardware to check poorly documented or undocumented behaviour. These tests usually involve dozens of quick builds/edits to test roms, uploading them to a flashcart, and running them on the system. I work primarily off my laptop, and currently, I find myself having to transfer my ROM builds over the network to a PIII box every time I want to run a test. It would save me a lot of time if I could do all the work off my laptop, with the programmer plugged in through USB, sitting on the floor next to my Mega Drive.

I would buy myself one of the fairly expensive PCMCIA parallel adapters for my laptop, except for the fact that PCMCIA is also being phased out. The next generation of laptops will not have PCMCIA ports. At this time, there will be no solution for running EPP-based parallel devices from a laptop. Who knows how many EPP-compliant expansion cards there will be for desktops in the future either, once PCI Express completely replaces the original PCI standard.


As I said, I'm sure I'm not the first guy to think of this. I know a bit about digital electronics, and I wouldn't have a clue how to build a USB device. The software side also requires a proper driver. Parallel is trivial by comparison. The work needs to be done though. The cost of the programmer is also obviously going to be much higher. I for one would pay it in an instant, but there's no reason the parallel programmer couldn't be kept around as a cheaper alternative for people who don't want to shell out for the USB version. While the flashcart programmers are being redesigned though, how about building a USB ROM dumper too, or even better, making the programming stations do both? That's some extra insentive to pay the cash.

Personally, I think making a USB programming option available for these flashcarts is essential, if these carts are going to have life beyond the next 2-3 years.
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kyuusaku



Joined: 26 Jul 2003
Posts: 941
Location: .ma.us

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man it seems we've had a dozen of threads about this.

The bottom line is that while parallel ports are dead, so are old consoles. While old console flash carts are cool to us, here on the Tototek forum(...), they aren't so cool to everyone else and don't sell as much as you might think. Implementing USB in these flash devices would be nearly the same work as making them in the first place. Also, the guy that designed the flash carts has been gone for years now so everything would have to be started from scratch and I don't think anyone at Tototek (meaning Tomy) is up for that just for the few who can't/don't want to use parallel ports...

These devices were all developed 3-4 years ago, I'll bet the farm that nothing is going to change.

EPP compliancy is not as rare as you make it out to be, every parallel expansion card from the last decade will almost certainly be EPP compliant and probably use the same logic macro too.

Lastly, there are plenty of EPP compliant *PCI Express* cards available extremely cheap right now so there's no good reason why a desktop won't be able to have a parallel port for at least another decade. Even then probably someone will release a parallel card for the next new interface.
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rbudrick



Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 373

PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, I've had a lot of trouble getting modern parallel ports to work with older copiers and other dumping devices. I almost always have to use an old PC. It's always a crapshoot, honestly. Some devices I can use a modern PC, others only old PCs. Parallel is a very finicky technology.

-Rob
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kyuusaku



Joined: 26 Jul 2003
Posts: 941
Location: .ma.us

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only reason why the old PCs work better is because they're probably not running XP; the parallel port logic is always the same whether it's an ancient ISA card or built into your motherboard, there's not enough to a SPP/EPP parallel port to really have any logical incompatibility. If it works with a printer, it will work with a copier.

The only other thing I can think of is that modern parallel ports sometimes output 3V instead of 5V, but my port does this and I haven't had any problems using any of my parallel devices.
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Xenepp



Joined: 14 Feb 2008
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
he bottom line is that while parallel ports are dead, so are old consoles.


Isn't the whole idea of the thing to preserve the consoles for future use? What's the point of manufacturing a product with dead technology? So you have to surround yourself with other defunct systems just to service one? It's inefficient.

Quote:
they aren't so cool to everyone else and don't sell as much as you might think


They would if they were a better product. Units like the PowerPak would sell more if it was cheaper and incidently, it's always sold out.

-Joel
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kyuusaku



Joined: 26 Jul 2003
Posts: 941
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really don't understand how a ROM playback device preserves consoles, for most people, including the "preservation" scene, it's more about playing their downloaded ROMs on their newly acquired retro hardware.

It's inconvenient for a customer to keep an old PC around for it's parallel port, but it's moreso inconvenient to redesign your product and take a price cut (USB controllers cost money) for the whiny customers who can't get a parallel port expansion card.

I should point out that the PowerPak also uses defunct parts from nearly 10 years ago which are more difficult and expensive to obtain every day. I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't any more batches made since the Powerpak is dirt cheap as it is and is the maker did it out of charity since there are no comparable units (which is why it sells so well).
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Vlcice



Joined: 01 Jan 2008
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kyuusaku wrote:
It's inconvenient for a customer to keep an old PC around for it's parallel port, but it's moreso inconvenient to redesign your product and take a price cut (USB controllers cost money) for the whiny customers who can't get a parallel port expansion card.


Just to comment on this - it seems that many of the people having trouble with the parallel ports are using either laptops or legacy-free computers like Macs, neither of which can really take a parallel port expansion that would be compatible with many copiers.
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RGB_Gamer



Joined: 01 Oct 2007
Posts: 879

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can relate to this. I had so many problems with parallel ports and XP and as soon as I set up a machine with Windows 98, all my problems were solved. On the flip side, it totally sucks that we can't fully take advantage of new technology to support older hardware. It's one thing if you are dealing with a backup unit that has a parallel port and disk drive since those were the protocols of the time, but to come out with a new product that doesn't support USB as a data transfer solution just doesn't seem to make sense. Not everyone has an older PC or the tech savvy to get XP to work with a parallel port.

Now the PowerPak was built with new technology in mind even though it's for a system as old as NES: take advantage of the techology that is availible now (solid state memory, card reader, better OS like XP) to make the average user have as little pains as possible
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Xenepp



Joined: 14 Feb 2008
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I really don't understand how a ROM playback device preserves consoles


I can see that.

Quote:
for most people, including the "preservation" scene, it's more about playing their downloaded ROMs on their newly acquired retro hardware.


Ask yourself honestly, what was the motivation behind making this product? Keeping in mind, the publicity photos depict the hardware running commercial games?

Quote:
USB controllers cost money


They sure do, about as much as a packet of cigarettes.

-Joel
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kyuusaku



Joined: 26 Jul 2003
Posts: 941
Location: .ma.us

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Xenepp wrote:

Ask yourself honestly, what was the motivation behind making this product? Keeping in mind, the publicity photos depict the hardware running commercial games?

To sell them to people no questions asked, knowing that 99% of them will not be using it for legal homebrew or their personally backed up games.

Quote:
They sure do, about as much as a packet of cigarettes.

-Joel

It depends on the controller, but most are the price of 4-6 packs which either the customer or Tototek will have to eat, and as you noted consumers want cheap items. Controllers also require an oscillator, USB connector and passive components at minimum, many require external transceiver chips and configuration ROMs too, the product will also need the PCB rerouted, new logic, new drivers, new flashing software and most importantly a new hardware engineer who can make all this happen. It's not just a little deal.

It would be much cheaper to implement compact flash than USB, but you'd still have to wait for the game to be written, unless the product moves to SRAM (which will cost $150 for 64M alone) or DRAM (will need a new bigger CPLD with more logic for DRAM). Everything is a tradeoff and for the time being Tototek's products are the best they can be all things considered.

I also just don't think it's fair to expect things from Tototek which is basically a one man operation as you would from Neoflash who literally have a factory and make a fortune off GBA and DS flashcarts and 3rd party controllers, AV cables and crap.
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Wolfeman



Joined: 26 Dec 2006
Posts: 62

PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can see both sides of it. I keep an older PC just for my backup devices, and I try not to complain too much.... but a man can dream can't he?

I don't agree that the market for a newer revised usb based system would not be popular. The retro game scene is growing exponentially and people are turning to backup devices to capture the nostalgia. Look at retrousb and atarimax for the proof of that.

I agree though that economics for the developer is the bottom line and what is needed is someone to back a project who has deep pockets and who wants the ultimate USB backup device for his/her own use and then turns the results to the general public for consumption.

I mean, if you're rich enough, you can get Ben Heck to make you a PS3 laptop... ergo, if you're rich enough you can find someone, or some group to create for you the ultimate backup device.


My dream unit would be a combo Genesis/SNES cart with snes on one end and genny on the other, both sharing a compact flash or sd card in the middle. No interface needed since all you need is a card reader. Flip the thing over depending on which console you want. Yeah it would look kinda strange but it would also be very cool I think. Sorta like those old dual ended 2600 carts Very Happy
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