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rbudrick
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 373
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 Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 5:55 am Post subject: |
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Oh, so that's what the Read and Copy feature is for...to read from another FDS drive to grab the image. Makes sense now, since FDSloadr just emulates a real FDS drive. Cool that it works for that purpose, though! Neat way of doing things for sure!
Did you do the mod to the power board on your 7201 drive? I'm assuming you did, since even 7201 drives won't write without that simple mod.
-Rob |
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ChimyFolkButter
Joined: 15 Oct 2005
Posts: 50
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| Yes, I modded the power board. Now I can finally try those cheesey pirates from super pig. |
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rbudrick
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 373
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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You know, to be honest, I don't know anyone besides The author of FDSLoadr that's gotten the write feature to work. But then again, until the last couple months, I haven't known anyone to have a 7201 w/ mod, or 3206 with both mods AND the FDSLoadr cables to try it!
I should be able to try the write feature of FDSLoadr on mine pretty soon once I get my drives retuned. I know the Copy Master write works, so I definitely did the mod right.
I just bought a micrometer caliper so I'm getting very close to having a good way to measure how to retune fds drives.
-Rob |
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ChimyFolkButter
Joined: 15 Oct 2005
Posts: 50
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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Rob,
If copymaster works, then the mod works. I tried everything with FDSLoader to try and get it to work. THe only thing I haven't tried was building the bypass circuit from the document that you translated. It looks pretty straight forward. I think the cleanest way is the MGD1 with the software that Tomy created and the tools that Madman created to modify dumps from MGD1.
I guess overall there is not much interest in writing FDS disks. I think there is only like 5-6 people I know that still do this.
-CFB |
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madman
Joined: 07 Jul 2006
Posts: 598
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:49 am Post subject: |
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Well, only a few people outside of HK/Japan  I have to get around to cleaning up the tool and releasing it. |
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ChimyFolkButter
Joined: 15 Oct 2005
Posts: 50
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:43 am Post subject: |
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LOL, yea that's what I meant. I wish I could read Chinese and Japanese. There are alot of cool Famicom hacking web sites that I can't read.
BTW, Rob, Tomy, and you make up 3 of the 6 that I know.
-CFB |
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rbudrick
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 373
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Rob,
If copymaster works, then the mod works. I tried everything with FDSLoader to try and get it to work. |
Hmmm? So you got CopyMaster to write disk images to disk, but not FDSLoadr, right? The two sentences you wrote above seem contradictory, then. Maybe I'm reading you wrong?
| Quote: | | THe only thing I haven't tried was building the bypass circuit from the document that you translated. |
Well, that's only for 3206 drives anyway.
| Quote: | | It looks pretty straight forward. I think the cleanest way is the MGD1 with the software that Tomy created and the tools that Madman created to modify dumps from MGD1. |
Yeah, just waiting for Madman to release it.
| Quote: | | I guess overall there is not much interest in writing FDS disks. I think there is only like 5-6 people I know that still do this. |
Well, I think due to a lot of work that's been done in the last couple of years (and a huge surge in the last couple months), more people are starting to get interested in it. The interest hasn't been there as much until recently when the proper software and hacks were made public to the west. I know at least a couple people told me they had given up on the dream until they saw my translation and understood the ins and outs of FDS hacking.
Once people see there is an easy solution out there and that tools like Copy Master and Disk Hacker have finally been dumped, people will be more recptive. All we need now is someone to start selling FDSLoadr cables, and 3206 mod boards (or even a modding service). Oh, and a newer WinXP dumping program would be nice (Madman, didn't you say you were working on this?).
Also, since knowledge of retuning FDS drives is finally breaking out, I think that once it becomes common knowledge, we will see a much bigger interest.
There's a few hurdles, but once those are overcome, there could potentially be a lot more interested people, and that has kind of been my mission all along.
It's kind of a catch-22, you know? People aren't interested because the proper user-friendly tools aren't out yet (but getting there faster than ever), but if they were, people would be interested. 
I hope to have a doc ready for retuning drives within the next couple months.
Since most folks don't have a fami copier, it's too bad most folks can't use Copy Master. If only there was a newer version of FDSLoadr that emulated some simple functions of such copiers to play weird pirate programs like that. Hell, I think emulator authors in general should support them.
-Rob |
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ChimyFolkButter
Joined: 15 Oct 2005
Posts: 50
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:08 am Post subject: |
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Rob,
Yes, I did get CopyMaster to work with the 7201 drive and the modifcation to the power board. If you can copy disks with copymaster than your FDS drive is good.
No, I couldn't get FDSLOADR to write FDS images back to disk. When I try and dump the disk with the FDSLOADR Ram Adapter cable, I get a "0" during the read. When I try and load the disk on the FDS drive connected to the Famicom, I get an Error 22. It seems that the header is corrupted. I can't analyze the file since FDSLOADR will stop reading the disk once it encounters an error.
I would need another utility like MGD1 with the MGD cable to dump the FDSLOADR written disk as I believe MGD1 really doesn't care about the contents of the Famicom disk. Then again, I am speculating. If only I had an MGD, I could see what the heck is going on. Maybe Madman can get around to building an FDSLoadr cable and try it out. Then analyze the FDSLoadr written disk.
As for making the drive mod board (not the power mod), I haven't got around to getting the parts and creating it. I would like to build it and use that as a baseline for comparison against Brad Taylor's modification. I remember saving the email correspondence you had with Brad about the specifics of Brad's modification to by pass the 3206. I think I got it off the digitpress forums.
I could try and build Brad's circuit and then test the FDSLoadr again. Maybe there is something in the circuit that enables FDSLoadr disk writes to run. Again, I am speculating.
As for the mod board again, once I get that working, it shouldn't be a problem to make a pcb and get it manufactured in small quantities. Next, it is a matter of getting the parts to populate the board. As of now, the mod circuit uses off the shelf Low Power Schottky logic chips but the transistors are the Japanese versions which are hard to get. I have to research and try and replace them with standard transistors that one can buy from radioshack.
Overall, the FDS drive is a tricky and moody device. So many things can go wrong. Most people will not even bother. But I like the challenge. I think you are even more determined as I got turned on to this from the work that you have done in the past 2 years.
-CFB |
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rbudrick
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 373
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | No, I couldn't get FDSLOADR to write FDS images back to disk. When I try and dump the disk with the FDSLOADR Ram Adapter cable, I get a "0" during the read. When I try and load the disk on the FDS drive connected to the Famicom, I get an Error 22. It seems that the header is corrupted. I can't analyze the file since FDSLOADR will stop reading the disk once it encounters an error. |
So, you wrote an actually playable disk using Copy Master, but FDSLoadr won't dump that disk now? Or it won't play in the FDS either? What the? Perhaps your FDS needs to be retuned? Unless the disk is damaged, I doubt the header is corrupted, as Copy Master writes a file to disk exactly as it is given to it.
I've copied disks with Copy Master and they seemed to work fine, so I dunno.
But as for the write feature of FDSLoadr, unbeknownst to most peopele, Brad Taylor actually did his own personal mod to the 3206 drive to get it to write disks with FDSLoadr (guy is waaay too smart). He admitted in the docs something of the sort, but most folks never even got that far. He said in a personal email to me once that the circuit he built was similar to the one in the doc I translated (this was long before I translated it...Tomy was the original source for the low-grade photocopies of the doc that appeared on the NESdev site. Tomy had no idea where the docs were from and it took me approximately 1 billion hours and about as many dollars in the course of a year to figure it out and find the originals, in Famicom Kaizou Manual heh heh). I wonder why his circuit could write and the standard modded 7201 can't (assuming we've been doing it right...maybe we haven't). Maybe the modded 3206 drives with mod board could...I dunno. I would be very puzzled if that were true. I've gotta do my own tests with the FDSLoadr write feature, but haven't been able to yet, since FDSLoadr likes drives tuned a little differently than a drive that is just perfectly tuned to play games only, I've found.
| Quote: | | I would need another utility like MGD1 with the MGD cable to dump the FDSLOADR written disk as I believe MGD1 really doesn't care about the contents of the Famicom disk. Then again, I am speculating. If only I had an MGD, I could see what the heck is going on. Maybe Madman can get around to building an FDSLoadr cable and try it out. Then analyze the FDSLoadr written disk. |
I still wish we had a source for the Pasodisk/Chameleon setup only available in Japan. I wish someone would order a bunch and sell them.
| Quote: | | As for making the drive mod board (not the power mod), I haven't got around to getting the parts and creating it. I would like to build it and use that as a baseline for comparison against Brad Taylor's modification. I remember saving the email correspondence you had with Brad about the specifics of Brad's modification to by pass the 3206. I think I got it off the digitpress forums. |
Yeah, like I said, since that board is only for 3206 drives, I'd be curious as to whether it would write better...or whether your drive has to be retuned.
| Quote: | | Overall, the FDS drive is a tricky and moody device. So many things can go wrong. Most people will not even bother. But I like the challenge. I think you are even more determined as I got turned on to this from the work that you have done in the past 2 years. |
Sweet! Then I've done my job well, if there's one more person to help crack this nut known as the FDS! I believe the FDS is a great system that so many will not get to enjoy due to it's drawbacks, and people deserve a reliable backup solution to preserve the system forever. I'm very glad I've been able to contribute some to that.
-Rob |
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ChimyFolkButter
Joined: 15 Oct 2005
Posts: 50
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | So, you wrote an actually playable disk using Copy Master, but FDSLoadr won't dump that disk now? Or it won't play in the FDS either? What the? Perhaps your FDS needs to be retuned? Unless the disk is damaged, I doubt the header is corrupted, as Copy Master writes a file to disk exactly as it is given to it. |
I wrote the disk with FDSLoadr (Disk Adapter) then I tried to dump the disk with FDSLoadr (Disk Adapter). I get an error.
Disks created with CopyMaster load great and can be read by FDSLOADR (Disk Adapter) and written to an FDS image. |
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madman
Joined: 07 Jul 2006
Posts: 598
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:22 am Post subject: |
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My guess is it could be a timing issue with fdsloadr and your particular PC. I haven't looked at the code in awhile, but if he's just sending a steam of bytes to be written to the disk, it could be that the util is sending data too fast for the FDS. If you want to snail mail me a disk written with fdsloadr I can take a look at it, but the MGD1 won't read disks with errors, it'll display the FDS error (21, 22, etc). I've been too lazy lately to go buy the parts I need to build my own
As for a WinXP fdsloadr util, this wouldn't be hard to do at all. The hard work has already been done by Brad, one just needs to write a util using dlportio or equivalent to access the LPT port. He's got the protocol already figured out. It's on my list of things to do. |
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rbudrick
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 373
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | My guess is it could be a timing issue with fdsloadr and your particular PC. I haven't looked at the code in awhile, but if he's just sending a steam of bytes to be written to the disk, it could be that the util is sending data too fast for the FDS. If you want to snail mail me a disk written with fdsloadr I can take a look at it, but the MGD1 won't read disks with errors, it'll display the FDS error (21, 22, etc). I've been too lazy lately to go buy the parts I need to build my own
As for a WinXP fdsloadr util, this wouldn't be hard to do at all. The hard work has already been done by Brad, one just needs to write a util using dlportio or equivalent to access the LPT port. He's got the protocol already figured out. It's on my list of things to do. |
Well, iirc, the timing was the most difficult and critical thing to do in software for Brad...took him a while to figure it out, but it's pretty tightly regulated, so if it actually wrote the disk and didn't error out, FDSLoadr performed as it should have. I think it's the FDS drive that needs to be retuned.
Interesting and potentially important thought I just had: Generally, when you dub disk to disk, as in the translated doc I did, the timing between the two systems has to be synched. That's what the potentiometer and LEDs are for. So, I believe that might be the issue....since you are basically emulating the dubbing cable and another FDS with FDSLoadr when you do the write feature, if your drive isn't tuned to exactly what FDSLoadr expects, you may have issues. Wow, I can't beleive I never thought of that before. Just a theory, but sounds plausible to me.
If the theory is right, it explains perfectly why the Copy Master disks work correctly, since the game is loaded into RAM, then written to disk....not dubbed straight over! Wow...this whole idea never occurred to me before...what do you think, guys?
Now, with this in mind, I had another idea, that I would need some of you folks who are a bit smarter with electrical engineering than I am (cough, Kyuusaku, cough, lol). If a similar timing system (like the LEDs and potentiometer in the translated doc) were integrated into an actual FDSLoadr cable, it could take a lot of work out of having to psynch your FDS with your FDSLoadr for writing games, and even dumping them.
Another thought...say you have a perfectly tuned FDS. You want to retune your other FDS so it is exactly the same as the first one (the screw near the head). Would the dubbing cable's timing LED tell you when they are synched, if you never touch the potentiometer on the dubbing cables, but only turned the little screw by the head? I don't know just how accurate that system would be, but just another theory. It seems that screw has a lot (everything? lol) to do with the timing of the data stream, so I dunno, just another thought, or an idea for another drive tuning tool....using one tool for a purpose it wasn't totally designed for, but could work for nonetheless.
-Rob |
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madman
Joined: 07 Jul 2006
Posts: 598
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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If I recall, the pot adjusts motor speeds, putting one on an fdsloadr cable wouldn't do anything since you can't control the rate that a PC sends data through a pot on a data line. It has to be done in the software. I can almost guarantee that's the problem he's having. I believe the motor speeds need to be synced because you can't have one fds writing faster than it's receiving data. It's an analog copy, so think of copying a music tape, same principle. If they aren't running the same speed, data won't end up in the same spots.
Even if you write a disk on a poorly aligned FDS drive (or any drive, for that matter), you will always be able to read it back on the same drive because it's reading with the same alignment. It probably wouldn't work on any other drive except that one. And we know his FDS is fine because copymaster works. |
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ChimyFolkButter
Joined: 15 Oct 2005
Posts: 50
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting. I came to the same conlusion when I ran copymaster to get the FDS speed. It is running at 7. I have to tune the FDS drive down to 5 and see what happens.
-CFB |
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kyuusaku
Joined: 26 Jul 2003
Posts: 941
Location: .ma.us
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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Not entirely on topic but here's something I've been thinking about: a complete RAM adapter replacement. One which loads from RAM. The only drawback is the adapter audio used in like 4 games... this could be solved however with a plugin FDS adapter but I don't think it's worth the rare connector. The benefits would be: everything loads all the time and everything could possibly load faster, perhaps even instantly.
The solution is pretty simple: drive functions are emulated digitally exactly how PC emulators do it so as to retain compatibility with the BIOS. The RAM adapter has a lot of registers but there are only a few that matter. This whole thing could be done in a big CPLD.
Interested? |
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